Finding The Right Batteries

[OnMyWay]

On 1/7/2016 at 0:26 AM, earthdome said:

Thinking back on it (I spent a lot of months living in an RV) almost all of them have battery and inverter backup for areas where you cannot plug in to the power lines and only the higher cost RVs have a generator.

My niece and her husband have what I guess is a high end RV.  It has a diesel generator that will charge the batteries.  I think he told me the batteries will last 6 hours and then they turn on the generator.   All the inside plugs in the RV are AC, so I guess they have an inverter.

They have a vacation home where they have frequent brownouts, so the RV is always there waiting for them.  The area has summer temps over 40C so you have to have a good plan.

[OnMyWay]

I think Huggy is ready to build one of these:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/all-the-details-on-teslas-giant-australian-batteryt/

As the technology falls in price, it is likely we will see these in PH someday.

[AlwaysRt]

1 hour ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

Here is where I cannot wrap my mind around things.  Decades ago i had an RV that would run for 8 hours easy on a couple of old batteries.  The fridge was 3 way so I was not running the fridge off battery unless the engine was running but there was also an inverter so I could plug small 110 Volt appliances in it.  All this on one RV battery.  So how complicated can it be.  To read all the stuff on the Internet these days sure seems like everyone is overthinking this.  If I could just set up my house like I had my RV then I would be in heaven and the funny thing is, I am not running any more stuff in this house than I did in the RV (except I had no aircon in the RV but I am not looking to run aircons off batteries) and the house is about the same size as the RV I lived in so why is it so confounded difficult to set it up?

From what I can tell there is nothing hard about. I am sure I could go make a couple purchases today and be set up tonight. The hard part for me - not being familiar with the manufacturers, sizing, and options available that apply to my/our intended use. I refuse to believe I need the same $5,000 inverter/charger setup all these guys on the internet are using to backup their house (outlets, lights, refrigerator, freezer, HVAC system, wielder, stove, microwave.... for a week). And the, 'I'm in the US/UK/Australia... and I use blah blah blah doesn't help either. If I was there, yes I could and would go to different stores, compare and probably order from Amazon. Not able to do that here and not gonna risk Philippines customs getting excited and adding p10k or 20k to the package.*

Like you Dave, I keep thinking 'Why is this simple thing so friggin hard???' Sounds like Ken might have the answer - I hope.

*example of answer I just recieved from Youtube "probably just a standard 12v DC to 120v ac inverter, and plug into that when needed, since the only thing you're gaining with a ups is the "uninterrupted" feature, which isn't that important for your application and goal of doing it on the cheap. Then you can charge the battery with any standard charger as well" another complete waste of time

Edited July 11, 2017 by AlwaysRt
added example

[jpbago]

2 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

I could just set up my house like I had my RV then I would be in heaven

JJ will have an RV for sale shortly, but you will be in the USA, not heaven. I wonder if the RV would qualify as the one duty free vehicle that you can import when you get a SSRV, after all it is in the title.

[Huggybearman]

4 hours ago, AlwaysRt said:

I have been trying to figure this out for months. I have a very similar load requirement as you do (TV as monitor, laptop, router, fan). My first idea was to replace my 12v 7Ah APC 650 UPS battery with a 12v 100Ah battery (I am shooting for 1-2 hour runtime vs your 4 hour). I have been convinced by research I would burn up the inverter and/or the charger as the UPS was not designed to discharge or charge for hours. All the information I can find jumps over your setup, either discussing a UPS or whole house solutions.

What inverter and charger do I need to look for here in the Philippines that is quality but not way over capacity? I don't see a need to have an inverter and charger sized (and priced) for running a house for a day when I just want to watch a movie or comment on the forum for a couple hours.

I would suggest you do a power audit to find out what size of inverter and battery you need.

On each of the appliances you wish to use should be a label stating the wattage. This may also be in the tech specifications in the instructions, if you have them. Add them all together and I would add 50% and that would be the size of inverter you need. I would also go for a pure sine wave inverter rather than the cheaper and less efficient modified or quazi sine wave ones. Not all equipment will run on modified sine wave. As for a charger, it really depends on how you are going to use your UPS. If you just want something as a back-up which you will switch on as required then you don't need a large or sophisticated one. It will just be used to charge the battery and then switch off. The UPS will just be used as and when required. Technically that is not a UPS, rather just a standby battery/inverter system.

I you require a true UPS then you need something that is designed to run 24/7 through which you run your essential equipment. In that case the charger should be capable of sufficient output to match your power use plus a bit more to cater for the inefficienies of the system. You would need an 'intelligent' charger to avoid damaging the battery by overcharging.

In our case the only item of essential equipment is the internet. Everything else that I wish to run can be plugged in as required. As brownouts in our area are quite frequent I have the internet modem permanently connected to the UPS, which draws very little power, and everything else plugged into a voltage regulator plugged into the mains. When a brown out occurs I simply unplug the regulator from the mains and plug into the second socket of the UPS. No faffing around with lots of plugs. If the brownout is prolonged then I just plug the regulator into the little Honda genny.

As for which type to buy, I would avoid the cheap rubbish you get in the likes of Ace Hardware. I brought my inverter and charger from the UK. Quality is not easy to find in Phils. Perhaps you have a local supplier of UPS equipment who can obtain decent equipment and batteries. We have a couple here in CDO so they are around if you look.

Ken

 

 

[Huggybearman]

4 hours ago, Dave Hounddriver said:

Here is where I cannot wrap my mind around things.  Decades ago i had an RV that would run for 8 hours easy on a couple of old batteries.  The fridge was 3 way so I was not running the fridge off battery unless the engine was running but there was also an inverter so I could plug small 110 Volt appliances in it.  All this on one RV battery.  So how complicated can it be.  To read all the stuff on the Internet these days sure seems like everyone is overthinking this.  If I could just set up my house like I had my RV then I would be in heaven and the funny thing is, I am not running any more stuff in this house than I did in the RV (except I had no aircon in the RV but I am not looking to run aircons off batteries) and the house is about the same size as the RV I lived in so why is it so confounded difficult to set it up?

In your RV the fridge probably is the greatest power user, so being able to run off gas is a great power saving. In addition most of your other equipment, lights, water pump etc is already 12v so is the most efficient way of doing things in an RV. Also what size was the battery? It was probably quite large, possibly three times the size of a usual starter battery. 

Unfortunately everything in your house is not 12v so that is the nub of the problem. You have to convert the 12v of your battery to run the 110v or 220v of your domestic equipment.

Ken

[Huggybearman]

4 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

I think Huggy is ready to build one of these:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/all-the-details-on-teslas-giant-australian-batteryt/

As the technology falls in price, it is likely we will see these in PH someday.

I REALLY want one of those.............

[Tukaram (Tim)]

I would love to find a rechargeable battery setup for the house, I don't want the noise of a generator.  Anything I have seen here has been too expensive - and I doubt the quality of most Filipino goods.

[Gary D]

5 hours ago, Tukaram (Tim) said:

I would love to find a rechargeable battery setup for the house, I don't want the noise of a generator.  Anything I have seen here has been too expensive - and I doubt the quality of most Filipino goods.

They are looking at them here in the UK to store the excess energy from your solar panels.

[Dave Hounddriver]

Thinking out load:

My NORECO electric bill tells me I use approximately 500 kwh per month. That does not sound like a lot but the highest bill I have had was for 600 kwh per month which cost me somewhere in the mid 5,000 peso range.

600 kwh divided by 720 hours in a month is only about 820 watts per hour, on average .  That does not seem very much considering I use a 1 HP split aircon unit approximately 20 hours a day.  Its almost always on so what's wrong with these numbers?  Seems they should be higher.