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6 hours ago, Jack D said:

You seem to be forgetting that race and racism may seem to be very logical and sensible to the person in charge.

President wants fewer immigrants from “shithole countries” and more from places like Norway

He reportedly made the racist remarks during a meeting Thursday.

President President reportedly referred to Haiti and countries in Africa as “shithole countries” and called for more immigrants from places like Norway at an Oval Office meeting with lawmakers, two people briefed on the meeting told the Washington Post on Thursday night.

https://www.vox.com/2018/1/11/16880750/President-immigrants-shithole-countries-norway

I see.  The Washington Post, a totally unbiased newspaper, used third-hand information "two people briefed on the meeting" from leakers, to declare it racist.  I will assume that the two levels of leakers had no agenda when they leaked the information from a private meeting.  They were just trying to protect the American people and all the people of the world from this terrible, bad, bad, racist.  Same for the Washington Post, owned by the wealthiest man in the world.

However, I do not refute that he said that.  He probably did.  The problem is that the "racist in charge" is not PC, and many people hate him for that.  He is an arrogant narcissist businessman, not a PC lifetime politician.  He does not need to be PC as he does not need a cushy lifetime job and retirement provided at taxpayer cost.  He is a threat to the status quo in government, and they hate him.  They then convince / brainwash their devout followers that they must hate him, because he is bad.  Racist bad!  Meanwhile in the background they continue with their dirty deeds that make them wealthy.

May I ask, have you ever been to "shithole" country?  I'm not talking about the Philippines, which you left and may think it is a shithole.  I have been to a West African country that I would describe as shithole.  Suppose you and I, or anyone, especially those world travel experience, were having a beer and chatting about whatever.  I mention that I had quite an experience travelling to West Africa with a friend, and it turned out to be a huge shithole.  We thought we were going to a French beach resort, but the whole surrounding area was a huge shithole.  Does that make me a racist?  Should I talk to my friends in PC language?  "My friend and I visited a French resort, and the surrounding area was very poor, full of underprivileged, very poor people whose government is corrupt.  You can't drink the water and they have no sanitary facilities.  Despite being careful.  I got very sick because I had some ice that was bad."  I'll just keep it short and say it was a shithole.

Am I a racist towards the people of that country because I think their "country" is a shithole run by corrupt officials?  Unfortunately, it is just a statement of fact.  Strange coincidence to my actual topic.  We accepted a "guide" at the airport exit.  Really nice guy.  Took us to his mud house and we met his family.  That is where I had the ice.  We had him for 3 days and when it came time to pay him, he refused.  What he really wanted was to be sponsored to come to the U.S.  We insisted he take some money and my friend actually heard from him later, but we were in no position to sponsor him.

There is no way any country can take in every downtrodden potential immigrant.  It is not racist to try an encourage higher quality immigrants while accommodating smaller numbers from impoverished countries.  It is a duty to try to improve the country, not drag it down with too many poor, uneducated immigrants.

No thanks for making my topic political.  It can be locked now.  I will have to start another one.  @Jollygoodfellow

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I believe that it is to stop abuse of a generous country. I personally have two nieces who are nurses. Went to the states, got good jobs, became citizens and immediately sponsored their over 60 parent

OI!  don't forget the sharks and crocodiles and killer jelly fish 

When you upload documents to the NVC, there can be a lot of back and forth with them before they finally accept the document.  This causes some inadvertent delays since NVC will sometimes take months

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9 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

However, I do not refute that he said that.  He probably did. 

Everyone wants the leader to be honest, until his honesty butt hurts them. :56da632e94212_1(60):

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10 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

It is a duty to try to improve the country, not drag it down with too many poor, uneducated immigrants.

@Jollygoodfellow

On the contrary, the USA has a very long history of poor (and often under-educated) immigrants becoming successful and powerful in the USA, who improved the USA and never dragged it down.

These Iconic Figures of American History   Were All Immigrants

Nov 12, 2015

“Every American who has ever lived, with the exception of one group, was either an immigrant himself or a descendant of immigrants,” wrote a young senator in 1958. The senator’s name was John F. Kennedy, himself the grandchild of Irish immigrants.

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6 hours ago, Jack D said:

On the contrary, the USA has a very long history of poor (and often under-educated) immigrants becoming successful and powerful in the USA, who improved the USA and never dragged it down.

These Iconic Figures of American History   Were All Immigrants

Nov 12, 2015

“Every American who has ever lived, with the exception of one group, was either an immigrant himself or a descendant of immigrants,” wrote a young senator in 1958. The senator’s name was John F. Kennedy, himself the grandchild of Irish immigrants.

Yes.  That is historically true.

However, the world changes.  At times, the U.S. needed strong immigration of people regardless of skills and education.  Certainly many succeeded when given the opportunity.  Transportation and technology have changed by leaps and bounds.

in 1958 when Kennedy said that, the world population was 2.9 billion.  Now it is 7.7 billion.  260% increase.  The U.S. population was around 175 million.  Now it is around 332 miliion.  190% increase.  In 1800, the U.S. population was 5.3 million.  In 1900,  76 million.  The country needed immigrants to grow and thrive.

In 1800 or 1900, immigration was difficult due to distances and primitive transportation.  That is completely different now.

In 1800 or 1900, the internet did not exist.  Communication was slow.  It took a massive long term life decision for a potential immigrant to carry out the plan.  Now, poor people in many places have phones with internet.  The promise of a better life is dangled in front of them every day.  Sometimes with the promise of "free stuff" attached.  Many unscrupulous people engage in human trafficking, preying on the people, and using technology as part of their scam.

The U.S. can't just absorb every body and must have standards and do some checking.  And, most importantly, having a legal queue for those who wish to immigrant.  In 1900, you had to jump on a ship and probably arrive at Ellis Island.  I'm sure many undesirables were admitted because not much background checking was available.  Now, all kinds of information is available and verifiable, before a person is allowed to legally embark.

How do you think other countries do it?  When I moved to Germany in 2006 I was sponsored by my employer for a good job.  I was initially rejected.  Why?  I didn't have a 4 year university education.  I had to go a different route and was declared an expert in my field by my company, and I got the work visa.  Here in the Philippines, a poor country, I had to jump through hoops to get my 13A marriage visa.

Many countries, as reported here by some members here, are regretting overly liberal immigration policies, and have so many immigrants sucking on the governments tit.  That can't continue forever.

Educated people are more desirable immigrants in any country.  Poor immigrants can mostly come from pools of refugees.  Both need careful screening.

The available U.S. jobs have changed a lot too.  Less good paying manufacturing jobs.  More high tech jobs.  Etc.

 

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59 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

Educated people are more desirable immigrants in any country.  

The available U.S. jobs have changed a lot too.  Less good paying manufacturing jobs.  More high tech jobs.  Etc.

Good point but...

Visa Rejections for Tech Workers Spike Under President

Due to the high demand for tech skills, H-1B visas have always been coveted and competitive. But denial rates have more than doubled since 2016.

Trump holding an executive order with his signature
While campaigning to become president, Donald President promised to overhaul the H-1B visa program. Denial rates for both new applications and extensions have more than doubled since he took office.
SCOTT OLSON/GETTY IMAGES

In November of 2018, Usha and her husband Sudhir received the news they never expected: the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services declined to extend Usha’s work visa, meaning the couple and their daughter would have 180 days to leave the country before the US government would consider their presence to be unlawful.

The notice hit the whole family like a punch to the gut. Eight years before, Usha and her daughter had moved from India to New Jersey to join Sudhir, who was already living in the United States, pursuing a master’s degree in computer science. Both Usha and Sudhir landed jobs as quality assurance analysts for IT outsourcing firms, relying on so-called H-1B visas, which are reserved for specialty occupations. Before coming to the US, Usha had earned a bachelor's in math and physics, and a master's in political science. They’d bought a home, paid their taxes, and enrolled their daughter, who’s now 16, in school. Usha had been approved in the early stages of the green card process, and had successfully extended her H-1B visa twice before.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/h-1b-visa-rejections-spike-under-President/amp

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15 minutes ago, Jack D said:

Good point but...

Visa Rejections for Tech Workers Spike Under President

Due to the high demand for tech skills, H-1B visas have always been coveted and competitive. But denial rates have more than doubled since 2016.

Trump holding an executive order with his signature
While campaigning to become president, Donald President promised to overhaul the H-1B visa program. Denial rates for both new applications and extensions have more than doubled since he took office.
SCOTT OLSON/GETTY IMAGES

In November of 2018, Usha and her husband Sudhir received the news they never expected: the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services declined to extend Usha’s work visa, meaning the couple and their daughter would have 180 days to leave the country before the US government would consider their presence to be unlawful.

The notice hit the whole family like a punch to the gut. Eight years before, Usha and her daughter had moved from India to New Jersey to join Sudhir, who was already living in the United States, pursuing a master’s degree in computer science. Both Usha and Sudhir landed jobs as quality assurance analysts for IT outsourcing firms, relying on so-called H-1B visas, which are reserved for specialty occupations. Before coming to the US, Usha had earned a bachelor's in math and physics, and a master's in political science. They’d bought a home, paid their taxes, and enrolled their daughter, who’s now 16, in school. Usha had been approved in the early stages of the green card process, and had successfully extended her H-1B visa twice before.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/h-1b-visa-rejections-spike-under-President/amp

What is your point?  Rich high tech companies have totally abused the H-1B program in order to save money by paying workers less.   They should be training and/or hiring citizens first before using H1-B.  The workers sometimes abuse it too.  I worked with an Indian guy during the 90's high tech boom.  He got hired by a tech company on a H1-B.  He had a Masters of some sort from India.  Good talker / bullshiter.  The salary wasn't great so soon he was looking for another job, which is allowed.  So he got a job with our company, who I guess then sponsored his H-1B.  Within a year, his wife got a job with our company too, as a web programmer, and moved from India.  His job was just a business analyst but paid better than his previous job.  He was constantly looking to jump ship.  He jumped after about 18 months.  Funny, I just happened to get him as a friend suggestion on FB yesterday and looked at his profile.  He has been living in the SF Bay area for over 20 years now.

I don't know what happened to that particular family in the story.  H1-B is a temporary visa.  If you want to stay as a permanent resident, you have to apply and be approved.  Their story sounds like a friend of mine in Germany, a fellow American.  They would not renew his work visa.  I'm not sure why, but he also had 6 months to leave.

https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/combating-fraud-and-abuse-in-the-h-1b-visa-program#:~:text=Employers who abuse the H,is a priority for USCIS.

 

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11 hours ago, Jack D said:

On the contrary, the USA has a very long history of poor (and often under-educated) immigrants becoming successful and powerful in the USA, who improved the USA and never dragged it down.

Not always.          I had an uncle who was in the navy and was stationed in Key West, Florida and later decided to make that his home.  In the the mid ‘60s he married a lady from Cuba who had fled with her parents shortly after Castro took over.  For many years she had little contact with her family left behind.  I remember she was always afraid to visit Cuba for fear Castro would force her to stay.  Finally in the early ‘80s she made several trips and also was able to sponsor several family members to come to the US.  She did this several times.  In the late ‘90s a friend and I were staying in Key West with them while doing some scuba diving.  My friend asked my aunt if she had been back to Cuba recently and if she had sponsored any more family members to come to the US.  Her response was a little surprising to me.  Her last visit had been four years prior and noted it was to be her last .  She said all the previous family that she sponsored  had assimilated to the US customs and became productive members of society. However, the last few had not.  She said unlike the previous members she sponsored the recent ones had easily learned how to play the system and apply and receive all the available government assistance and did not want to work or even try to better their lives.  She further stated this was not how her family was raised in Cuba and because of this she will no longer sponsor any more family members.

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8 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

What is your point?  Rich high tech companies have totally abused the H-1B program in order to save money by paying workers less.   They should be training and/or hiring citizens first before using H1-B.  

My point is that we have many unfilled positions in the high tech field, and the government, as well as private industry, is not doing enough to train American citizens to fill those positions.

If there was any possible way to fill those positions by American citizens, by all means, do it. If we fall behind the rest of the world with high tech, which now includes robotics, we could have a similar scenario to possibly losing the space race to the USSR/Russia.

For the most part, the US won the space race by utilizing former Nazi rocket scientists, with Werner von Braun at the forefront. Regardless of what type of immigration program can be created (that will be acceptable to you and others), the USA desperately needs skilled people to fill a large number of high tech jobs.

The traditional immigration process can take decades for highly skilled applicants, who are needed right now (and not 20 years from now) to fill a large number of jobs in our high-tech industries.

I’ve worked as a business analyst with computer programmers from India and other countries who were highly skilled, and in most cases, they were more proficient with computer coding than Americans who are trained in the USA.

You may not agree with me but that’s OK.

 

7 hours ago, intrepid said:

Not always.          I had an uncle who was in the navy and was stationed in Key West, Florida and later decided to make that his home.  In the the mid ‘60s he married a lady from Cuba who had fled with her parents shortly after Castro took over.  For many years she had little contact with her family left behind.  I remember she was always afraid to visit Cuba for fear Castro would force her to stay.  Finally in the early ‘80s she made several trips and also was able to sponsor several family members to come to the US.  She did this several times.  In the late ‘90s a friend and I were staying in Key West with them while doing some scuba diving.  My friend asked my aunt if she had been back to Cuba recently and if she had sponsored any more family members to come to the US.  Her response was a little surprising to me.  Her last visit had been four years prior and noted it was to be her last .  She said all the previous family that she sponsored  had assimilated to the US customs and became productive members of society. However, the last few had not.  She said unlike the previous members she sponsored the recent ones had easily learned how to play the system and apply and receive all the available government assistance and did not want to work or even try to better their lives.  She further stated this was not how her family was raised in Cuba and because of this she will no longer sponsor any more family members.

That’s a sad story, and from what I’ve read, it’s not unusual for Cuban exiles to come to America and take advantage of all government assistance programs.

However, there are many Cubans who came to this country in the 1960s (and other decades) who created businesses and jobs, which brought the country up and not down.

 

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12 minutes ago, Jack D said:

However, there are many Cubans who came to this country in the 1960s (and other decades) who created businesses and jobs, which brought the country up and not down.

Agreed, and this was the case of my aunt's family as I mentioned.  However, too many have found a way to abuse our system, just like many citizens.  Not just Cubans but many different nationals.  During the my last 15 years working I met many.  And yes of course I met many who also work good jobs and owned business as well. 

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1 hour ago, Jack D said:

My point is that we have many unfilled positions in the high tech field, and the government, as well as private industry, is not doing enough to train American citizens to fill those positions.

If there was any possible way to fill those positions by American citizens, by all means, do it. If we fall behind the rest of the world with high tech, which now includes robotics, we could have a similar scenario to possibly losing the space race to the USSR/Russia.

I'm on the fence here and I'm not sure we know the whole story.  I'm not one to shoulder the government with training people to fill those positions.  The government does not do many thing well.  What they can do, through legislation, is encourage business to train, instead of outsourcing.  When business gets in the outsourcing mood, they have a hard time going back, even if they are raking in profits.  I would say that the H-1B program might be a disincentive to train and promote within.  This is a good article:

https://mondo.com/tech-talent-shortage-lie/

1 hour ago, Jack D said:

I’ve worked as a business analyst with computer programmers from India and other countries who were highly skilled, and in most cases, they were more proficient with computer coding than Americans who are trained in the USA.

So have I.  In the early 2000's, the large company I worked for outsourced all IT work to Infosys.  Laid off almost the entire IT division.  Over 500 jobs lost, I believe. It was entirely a cost cutting measure brought in by a new CEO, and definitely not a quality measure.  The Infosys guys were fine, but I would not say they were better than the old teams, which also had many permanent immigrants.

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