Corruption And Expats In The News

[Dave Hounddriver]

A separate topic. This because a similar thread is running about personal experiences with corruption and this digresses from it.In another forum I read, (but seldom participate in), there is discussion about Kevin and Shereen Taylor who are allegedly being held in jail due to being set up by corrupt officials to either stop them from doing business or get a large payoff. I want to discuss how likely it is that any of us would be the target of corrupt officials and what we should do to avoid it. I want to discuss how far we should go to assist those who we believe are targets because of the possibility that we may also be targeted. I want to discuss other items in the news related to corruption that involves foreigners. Anyone?Here is the news story on the Taylors from almost 2 years ago. Briton, Pinoy wife arrested for illegal recruitmentHere is the news story on Patrick Walsh who was arrested for carrying a pocket knife.My Filipino jail nightmare

[Mr Lee]

A separate topic. This because a similar thread is running about personal experiences with corruption and this digresses from it.In another forum I read, (but seldom participate in), there is discussion about Kevin and Shereen Taylor who are allegedly being held in jail due to being set up by corrupt officials to either stop them from doing business or get a large payoff. I want to discuss how likely it is that any of us would be the target of corrupt officials and what we should do to avoid it. I want to discuss how far we should go to assist those who we believe are targets because of the possibility that we may also be targeted. I want to discuss other items in the news related to corruption that involves foreigners. Anyone? Here is the news story on the Taylors from almost 2 years ago. Briton, Pinoy wife arrested for illegal recruitmentHere is the news story on Patrick Walsh who was arrested for carrying a pocket knife.My Filipino jail nightmare

IMO the PHL is a safe place for retirees or people with income from outside the country, but again IMHO it is not a great place to have a business and try to compete with the local population, for one reason or another. How to stay out of trouble, IMHO do not start a business or if you do then make sure you have friends in high places, at least in the town you will be running your business. Now should a person help a person such as those who get in trouble as mentioned above, only to the extent of helping to pay legal fees or contacting their embassy or indirectly hiring a lawyer for them, or putting pressure on their own govt from within their country, but IMHO it would not be wise to try to directly interfere since we have no rights in the PHL and can easily end up deported or worse. My thoughts are to stay low key and therefore stay out of harms way in doing so. All the above is just my opinion, and at the same time I know it is very hard to watch a friend or fellow countrymen get the shaft, but sometimes we have to look out for number one first and I would do my best to help but without putting myself in harms way. Now if a person happens to know a person in high places then that might be the correct way to intervene without putting oneself in jeopardy. The knife thing amazes me but I am guessing it was because it was a switchblade because I do not see a knife mentioned in the law as illegal if carried for legal purposes and I do not know what a gun ban has to do with a knife, so if someone knows then please inform us. My guess is the man in question used vinegar instead of sugar when caught. Being nice goes a long way in a world that is not our own. "3. It is unlawful to carry outside of one's residence any bladed, pointed or blunt weapon such as "knife", "spear", "pana", "dagger", "bolo", "barong", "kris", or "chako", except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood or in pursuit of a lawful activity. Any person found guilty thereof shall suffer the penalty of imprisonment of not less than one month nor more than one year or a fine of not less than Two Hundred Pesos nor more than Two Thousand Pesos, or both such imprisonment and fine as the Court may direct.".chan robles virtual law libraryPhilippines Knife Law

[Jake]

A separate topic. This because a similar thread is running about personal experiences with corruption and this digresses from it.In another forum I read, (but seldom participate in), there is discussion about Kevin and Shereen Taylor who are allegedly being held in jail due to being set up by corrupt officials to either stop them from doing business or get a large payoff. I want to discuss how likely it is that any of us would be the target of corrupt officials and what we should do to avoid it. I want to discuss how far we should go to assist those who we believe are targets because of the possibility that we may also be targeted. I want to discuss other items in the news related to corruption that involves foreigners. Anyone? Here is the news story on the Taylors from almost 2 years ago. Briton, Pinoy wife arrested for illegal recruitmentHere is the news story on Patrick Walsh who was arrested for carrying a pocket knife.My Filipino jail nightmare

Hello Dave,First of all, I am not a lawyer or have any experience dealing with Philippine justice and enforcement system.My comments will be based on the story you provided for us. It basically looks like the Taylors were chargedwith illegal recruitment (no license/permit). Plus estafa involving over 400 applicants who either did not get job contracts, visas or their money back. No explanation from their side because they refuse to give any statements and therefore I cannot form any opinions one way or the other.The question about getting involved is a bit risky, don't you think? Have you spoken to any lawyers there whoare willing to argue in court on behave of the Taylors. Perhaps, members here on this forum who have anybusiness in the Philippines could shed some light on how to "grease the system" and possibly have to continueto pay tong or protection money to stay in business.Respectfully -- Jake

[Dave Hounddriver]

. . . My comments will be based on the story you provided for us. It basically looks like the Taylors were chargedwith illegal recruitment (no license/permit). Plus estafa involving over 400 applicants who either did not get job contracts, visas or their money back. No explanation from their side because they refuse to give any statements and therefore I cannot form any opinions one way or the other.The question about getting involved is a bit risky, don't you think? Have you spoken to any lawyers there whoare willing to argue in court on behave of the Taylors. Perhaps, members here on this forum who have anybusiness in the Philippines could shed some light on how to "grease the system" and possibly have to continueto pay tong or protection money to stay in business.Respectfully -- Jake

Should you like to read their side, they have a blog at EXPLAINING WHAT HAPPENED TO TAYLORSIt is another Philippine related forum who are urging their members to get involved. I have no knowledge other than what I just posted and no wish to get involved, BUT, what if it was me? What if it was you? How much would you expect others to get involved? What can others even do?

[Mr Lee]

I have no knowledge other than what I just posted and no wish to get involved, BUT, what if it was me? What if it was you? How much would you expect others to get involved? What can others even do?

IMO that is why it is important to have good friends who are willing to help, and to hang out with only people like yourself or in the same category as yourself, and IMO that is what a forum such as this is about, so we can help others in ways that might not get one of us in trouble. Many members seem to know people who know people etc and that would be the only easy way to help. From what I read in the past, that couple seems to have scammed locals out of money, and if so then they will now get what they deserve, but if innocent and they were actually entrapped and did not do what they are charged with, then I have to wonder why they got charged and why people are bringing charges against them, so in other words, who they pissed off to get themselves into that position. Life in the Philippines is surely not always fair, and it seems we usually read about things such as this and think the person must be innocent because he or she says they are, but when reading between the lines, we see most are not innocent of the deeds they end up in trouble for. Think about expats you know and some of the things they do, and then think whether they deserve to be in jail or worse. I have met a lot of expats over the years, and quite a few of them treat locals very poorly, be it the way they interact with them, or the way they abuse their gf's. I would not go out of my way to help one of those just because they may come from the same country I do, but I would go out of my way to help a good person who just stepped on the wrong toes accidentally and without malice and I am sure there are a lot of people who feel exactly as I do. Edited January 28, 2011 by Mr. Lee
fix spelling

[Jake]

Hello again Dave,I admire you for posting this important question about how to deal with Philippine justice if one is charged and detained. I have read some of his letters but failed to see any substantial statements countering what happen to the applicants fees. Did he have a valid permit to operate a recruitment business? More importantly, I found it unusual that the British Embassy did not take a more affirmative action on his behave. Why is that? "What if it was me", you ask: For example, If I was detained for "reckless imprudence" because I do drive in the Philippines, what are my options? How about someone charging you with "estafa"? Or your pissed off girlfriend/wife charged you withphysical abuse? Or someone charged you inappropriate behavior with a minor? Dave, you have opened up a can of worms but well worth the thoughts and comments from other members. As for me, forstarters, I would definitely contact the US Embassy. But be forewarn -- whatever your constitutional rights you enjoyed inyour home country, they will laugh in your face in a foreign jail. Besides that, legal assistance from the embassy is very limited. See link below:http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int23.htmGood topic starter Dave and hopefully we could all advise each other, respectfully -- Jake

[Dave Hounddriver]

Food for thought. A fictionalized true story.Huckleberry Hounddriver is moving from his country to retire in the Philippines. Just before he leaves, a friend asks him to keep an eye out for anyone looking for a job who wants to move to Huckleberry Ville.Huck does not even imagine it might be illegal to tell filipinas about a job offer in another country so he assists those girls to get in touch with the employer. Unfortunately the whole thing falls through. Huck is surprised it did not work and the girls are very disappointed.Luckily for Huck, nobody complained to the wrong people. One wonders how many people coming to the Philippines are naive like Huck? Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in any country so we need to discuss these things in forums like this. Would corrupt officials have charged Huck just to get a pay off. It is likely there are some corrupt officials who would keep Huck out of harm's way for the same reason.Does Huck deserve to sit in a jail cell for that? Perhaps the one beside the Taylors?

[No name]

There are allegations of expats being detained and held without charge.Sometimes for long periods of times.There is or was a website aimed at helping these people. However, I can't find it now. They also had videos on youtube. This site took donations. perhaps the site was a hoax! I don't know. The videos were scary and convincing but it is hard to convince me.What I see as our biggest threat is that if a Filipino goes to BI and wages a complaint against you, there will very likely be problems for you.In the cases I've seen that is what happened. Again, I don't know if any of them are accurate. People in jails, tend to lie. :)At the Cebu BI office there is a desk just to handle complaints. It has a sign on it that reads "complaints" I don't think it is for people to complain about BI. :)I saw a Filipina threaten a boyfriend with this. I think an empty threat but that girl is full of drama so.....But I know an expat, one main one, that treats Filipino like dirt. Nothing has been done about him. I think he behaves a little better while actually with them in public now but I don't know, I don't get around him. Many people here know him.Raising your voice to a Filipino is enough to have you blacklisted. Now, I've never heard of a case where that happened but it is law. At least, I've seen reports of it in the press. One hotel manager was rude to some Filipino congressmen and hauled down to BI to explain his actions. How he explained it, well, I'll leave that up to you.I've seen reports of a guy held for six months after he got into an argument with his neighbor. The expat claimed the Filipino requested cash and he refused.As for carrying a knife, in some parts of the Philippines that is strictly enforced. Some areas in Leyte are known for it. Waray in that area have a reputation for being experts with knifes. Legend, folklore, I don't know. I use to carry a knife and Jessie told me it could get me into trouble, so I stopped. She said it might and it might not.It was a carryover of an old habit of being armed to the teeth when I lived in Memphis. I also carried a 45. :)Act like a responsible adult and you're not likely to run into trouble. The keyword is likely. Reduce your risk. Much of what I read about abuse by authorities is exaggerated. I've seen stories of police shakedowns. The famous one is you take a girl back to your room. She goes to the restroom. There is a knock at the door and it is the police. While in the restroom she texted her police friends to come bust you. They tell you the girl is underage. You're now going to pay or go to jail.Has that every happened? I think surely it has. Is every account of it I read accurate? NO! I've seen the same story posted by different people claiming it happened to them and it was there story. Someone had to be lying. :)I feel much safer here than I did in Memphis. I was watching "The First 48" on Netflix last night. They showed a Memphis neighborhood. I told Jessie I would feel safer in Sulu Sulu region of the Philippines in that neighborhood. (Sulu Sulu is where Abu Sayyaf is. Linked to Al-Qaeda and a great place to get kidnapped).Here is one website about corruption in the Philippines, not impressed with it but take it for what it is. http://www.philippineimmigrationcorruption.com/

Edited January 28, 2011 by Flirltilzier

[Mr Lee]

Food for thought. A fictionalized true story.Huckleberry Hounddriver is moving from his country to retire in the Philippines. Just before he leaves, a friend asks him to keep an eye out for anyone looking for a job who wants to move to Huckleberry Ville.Huck does not even imagine it might be illegal to tell filipinas about a job offer in another country so he assists those girls to get in touch with the employer. Unfortunately the whole thing falls through. Huck is surprised it did not work and the girls are very disappointed.Luckily for Huck, nobody complained to the wrong people. One wonders how many people coming to the Philippines are naive like Huck? Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in any country so we need to discuss these things in forums like this. Would corrupt officials have charged Huck just to get a pay off. It is likely there are some corrupt officials who would keep Huck out of harm's way for the same reason.Does Huck deserve to sit in a jail cell for that? Perhaps the one beside the Taylors?

As you said Dave, ignorance of the law is no excuse, yet we are all ignorant of many of the laws of the Philippines at times. I posted the story of coffee importation being illegal and you found where the law I referred to was revoked, so there is a case where I was wrong and over cautious, but I was trying to warn people as I feel it is all our responsibility to do, and had I been correct, then many of us violate that all the time by bringing in coffee and could have possibly ended up in trouble had the law still been in effect. I remember a commercial where it says, an educated consumer is our best customer, so an uneducated visitor is the jails best customer. At this point in my life and with the internet, I feel anyone who moves to, or visits another country without doing research on what they intend to do while in that country is a fool, and therefore only has himself to blame if they try to do something illegal. In the case mentioned, it seems a number of people have filed complaints and said the couple took money from them and did not deliver on their promises. I would then say where is the money and why did they not know they needed a license to do business in a foreign country? Return of the money might go a long way to clear their name had they done it without intent to defraud. I, and I am sure most of you must know that a person needs a license to do any type of business in almost any country, so I would not even consider setting up as a street vendor in a country without first checking the laws and making sure it would be legal for me to do so. I find it hard to believe that those people did not know they were doing wrong. It seems there are many foreigners trying to scam other foreigners as well as locals nowadays. While I find it sad that quite a few foreigners make the news for getting themselves arrested, we also have to think of the many of us who never have a run in with the law because we use common sense and read this forum or other sources of info, and ask questions first.

[Rudderless]

1) I am skeptical. Lets survey Americans in American jails. How many do you think claim to be "innocent?" Most. My initial impression is that these folks where breaking the law. Maybe not but they probably where scamming people. Getting 400 people Visas? To america? 2 people filling out forms? Yeah right. 2) Motivation. Someone isn't gonna set you up on BS charges to take a fall unless they think you have the ability to give them what they want. Like others have said, keep a low profile by not running a business in RP. Therefore not making yourself a target. If you do: A) Set aside 50% of your income to handle this type of worst case scenario. B) Don't break the law or it's gonna be your ass.3) That guy with a knife? One, it was a switch blade. Two, the punishment is 1 month to 1 year and 1-2k pesos? Likely a month for a national if it was truly a misunderstanding. Pay the cash, break rocks for a month and get back to your family. Sure it sucks but sometimes we draw crap cards. Although, my general wager is that stuff like this is deeper than it appears.IMHO of course,Rudderless.