POGO article

[Tommy T.]

32 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

Those two points are not really relevant to the POGO discussion.  Sure, vice industries create many jobs, and make huge companies trillions of dollars.  Alcohol, tobacco, gambling, prostitution, drugs......  They all invite crime and corruption to a neighborhood near you.  Does that mean I am against all of them.  No, but I do have mixed feelings about several.

You make several really good points there, OMW. I, for one, will review them carefully. Your concerns sound valid. I am still ignorant about a lot of this POGO stuff and casinos here...

I won't enter into politics in this discussion other than to say that I agree with you that maybe not all is as it appears? Is that a nice way to say that? And military? Could be...?

[scott h]

30 minutes ago, OnMyWay said:

and a high percentage of the workers are imported foreign workers.

Granted OMW, and I really am not trying to be argumentative here just giving my observations.

I walked by a POGO last Tuesday in one of our poorer Baragays, Santo Nino, I saw two Fil security guards at the gate, 5 brand new Hilux vans with Fil drivers parked there, a Fil carrying trash from the building to the dumpster. Across the street were two restaurants obviously aimed towards the Chinese workers with some Fil staff (that I saw) and a young Chinese man buying 1 stick cigarette from a sari sari store. 

Granted that the majority of the employees are Chinese, but there is a trickle down effect here. IMO some jobs for locals are better than none.

The government is just pissed because (mostly due to their own negligence or corruption) of the tax revenue they are loosing out on.

[OnMyWay]

1 hour ago, scott h said:

I walked by a POGO last Tuesday in one of our poorer Baragays, Santo Nino, I saw two Fil security guards at the gate, 5 brand new Hilux vans with Fil drivers parked there, a Fil carrying trash from the building to the dumpster. Across the street were two restaurants obviously aimed towards the Chinese workers with some Fil staff (that I saw) and a young Chinese man buying 1 stick cigarette from a sari sari store. 

Are you referring to a POGO residence or POGO office?  Doesn't matter, just wondering.

Yes, we have the same here, right in our "exclusive" neighborhood.  There is a constant complaint stream from the regular residents now.  Noise, smoking, rude behavior, rude driving from the shuttle drivers, etc.  There have been some confrontations.  So I guess you could say I am biased.

The bottom line here is that we can all have our opinions on if the overall impact of POGOs on the Philippines is positive or negative.  We don't count much and it is the Filipino citizens who have to decide and convince their politicians one way or another.

If I had a vote, I would vote No to POGOS as it seems to be ripe for graft and other crimes (money laundering is a big one) to proliferate, while attracting other undesirables to the country as well.  I would be more on board with the really nice casino operations as at least they create something of value locally: Nice facilities and grounds for visitors and locals, higher % of jobs for Filipinos, tourist destinations that actually bring physical bodies and their wallets into the local economy.

[scott h]

15 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

POGO office?

The office, though we might have a residence building near us. We have a 7 story apartment building going up. Not a good area for condos so smart money is a Pogo residence.

15 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

Noise, smoking, rude behavior, rude driving from the shuttle drivers, etc. 

Woke up thinking, wow, history repeats its self . A bunch of young men, far from home, money in their pockets, living together in crowded conditions with not a lot to do in their spare time.  Subic should be used to it, they just had a 30 year break 

[OnMyWay]

As predicted....

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/economics/article/3043542/chinese-crime-wave-hits-dutertes-philippines-pogos-grow

[scott h]

1 hour ago, OnMyWay said:

As predicted....

wonder what the editorials and articles looked like around Subic and olongapo looked like in the 60's 70's and 80's 

[OnMyWay]

14 minutes ago, scott h said:

wonder what the editorials and articles looked like around Subic and olongapo looked like in the 60's 70's and 80's 

Yes, but the difference in the two scenarios, IMHO, is that many Filipinos benefited from the U.S. bases, whereas a relatively small amount, mostly wealthy, benefit from the POGOS.

Look how many FilAm families were formed back in those base days! 

[scott h]

1 hour ago, OnMyWay said:

Look how many FilAm families were formed back in those base days!

That was the silver lining for sure 

1 hour ago, OnMyWay said:

but the difference in the two scenarios, IMHO, is that many Filipinos benefited from the U.S. bases,

I am a trickle down type guy OMW, I never had the privilege of being posted in the Phil during my service days, but I did my share of carousing in other in towns out side of bases in other countries and I see a lot of similarities.

I live right in the middle of POGO country here in Paranaque here a some observations that I kan attest to. My wifes massuese also works cleaning POGO condos, like the maids we had in Okinawa and Korea. The market for 14 passenger vans has exploded, I see them driving around constantly. I counted 14 just in the parking lot of our S#R the other day each requires a Filipino driver not counting gas and maintenance each van gets. There is a POGO near our Bank, we made the mistake of driving by a couple of times at noon, about every third taxi in Metro Manila was there getting POGO worker going on their lunch break. During my walks about one time I week my route takes me by a POGO, the number of workers outside taking a smoke break is astounding lol the sari-sari store across the street is doing blockbuster business selling smokes. All the food they eat is not imported straight from china, but bought at the pelenke. These only scratch the surface of the trickle down economy.

The downside is that property prices are skyrocketing, and that the tax collection system needs to be overhauled, but then the US servicemen didn't pay income taxes either, so if they can start collecting income tax due its a net plus. 

[hk blues]

4 hours ago, scott h said:

That was the silver lining for sure 

I am a trickle down type guy OMW, I never had the privilege of being posted in the Phil during my service days, but I did my share of carousing in other in towns out side of bases in other countries and I see a lot of similarities.

I live right in the middle of POGO country here in Paranaque here a some observations that I kan attest to. My wifes massuese also works cleaning POGO condos, like the maids we had in Okinawa and Korea. The market for 14 passenger vans has exploded, I see them driving around constantly. I counted 14 just in the parking lot of our S#R the other day each requires a Filipino driver not counting gas and maintenance each van gets. There is a POGO near our Bank, we made the mistake of driving by a couple of times at noon, about every third taxi in Metro Manila was there getting POGO worker going on their lunch break. During my walks about one time I week my route takes me by a POGO, the number of workers outside taking a smoke break is astounding lol the sari-sari store across the street is doing blockbuster business selling smokes. All the food they eat is not imported straight from china, but bought at the pelenke. These only scratch the surface of the trickle down economy.

The downside is that property prices are skyrocketing, and that the tax collection system needs to be overhauled, but then the US servicemen didn't pay income taxes either, so if they can start collecting income tax due its a net plus. 

A good balanced view IMO 

[OnMyWay]

11 hours ago, scott h said:

wonder what the editorials and articles looked like around Subic and olongapo looked like in the 60's 70's and 80's 

I agree that it is an editorial with an anti-Duterte slant, but even if you take the statistics with a grain of salt, they are alarming.

9 hours ago, scott h said:

I live right in the middle of POGO country here in Paranaque here a some observations that I kan attest to. My wifes massuese also works cleaning POGO condos, like the maids we had in Okinawa and Korea. The market for 14 passenger vans has exploded, I see them driving around constantly. I counted 14 just in the parking lot of our S#R the other day each requires a Filipino driver not counting gas and maintenance each van gets. There is a POGO near our Bank, we made the mistake of driving by a couple of times at noon, about every third taxi in Metro Manila was there getting POGO worker going on their lunch break. During my walks about one time I week my route takes me by a POGO, the number of workers outside taking a smoke break is astounding lol the sari-sari store across the street is doing blockbuster business selling smokes. Not a positive for me and the country is fighting the smoking problem.  One of the big complaints in our neighborhood is all the butts thrown around.  All the food they eat is not imported straight from china, but bought at the pelenke. These only scratch the surface of the trickle down economy.

The downside is that property prices are skyrocketing, and that the tax collection system needs to be overhauled, but then the US servicemen didn't pay income taxes either, so if they can start collecting income tax due its a net plus. 

I think your downside list is very short.

--  Yes, their are trickle down jobs that are generally lower skilled jobs, but the big, big money is going into the pockets of big corporations and criminal syndicates.

--  Big money is also going into the pockets of those involved in corruption.  Politicians, police, building managers, etc.  Everyone wants a piece of the pie.

--  You have forgotten that many of the Chinese average POGO employees were scammed and do not receive the promised wages and benefits.  Organized crime is probably involved in the entire recruitment process.  Some of these employees are treated like slaves.

-- The illegal immigration aspect of this is huge and the government really has no idea how many legal or illegal POGO workers there are.

--  The tax collection can't be improved much unless the illegal immigration is stopped.  Billions of lost pesos that could be used to improve the lives of Filipinos.

--  The skyrocketing real estate prices are impacting the average Filipino, who get priced out of the market and then have to rent at higher rates.

--  As we all know, the Philippines is really poor at enforcement of laws.  They like to make them, but they are not enforced due to lack of resources or corruption.  Therefore, everything they say about changing the way POGOs are handled is probably just talk.  Nothing will change.  Unless....

--  I still think, or hope, this will end with a complete phase-out or ban of POGOs.  However, The Philippines has played right into the hands of the Chinese again.  The Chinese could pull the plug on this any time they want, but now hold all the financial cards.  If the POGOs go, the Philippines real estate market will collapse and the economy will fall into a recession.  Perhaps the next administration can tackle it.

I could go on but I'm tired.  As stated in my September post, POGOs are a big mistake for the Philippines.  IMHO.