So much for the "Swedish way"!

[earthdome]

10 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

100,000 deaths due to what?

CDC says only 7% did not have at least one comorbidity.  80% are over 65.  92% are over 55.  That is based on the 62,000 deaths that are coded right now, not the ~100k total.  The U.S. deaths are highly attributable to unhealthy people and unhealthy lifestyles.  And poor people are highly represented in the deaths.  They tend to be less healthy than the general population.

And keep in mind, U.S. hospitals have a financial incentive to blame a death on Covid, so when in doubt, Covid!  No test required.

CDC working on a new stat which may be interesting.  Excess deaths.  It is not ready for primetime because of the backlog of the coding and the time it takes to get death certificates.

What they do is take the weekly deaths from past years and project it it over the Covid period, which they have as starting Feb. 1.  So you have "weekly predicted deaths".  Then they look at the actual deaths and compare.  It is a bit confusing now, but I think they look at actual deaths with and without the "covid' deaths, for different views.  So, for instance, if the predicted deaths for week XX in April 2020 is 10,000, and the actual deaths are 11,000, you have 1,000 excess deaths over the normal.  You might infer that 1,000 deaths are due to Covid.

What I see in all the numbers is that without proper protections, Covid is the final nail in the coffin for unhealthy people who were going to die in the next 1-5 years anyway.  You can't deny the numbers.  In the video that Snowy posted, Florida did it right, or at least close.   Logically, Covid have moved those deaths up into these months, so overall death rates might be lower after Covid moves on.

And about 50% of the deaths were in nursing homes!  A total screw-up by the policy makers involved!  I think I read that, before Covid,  the average time spent in a nursing home before death is only 6 months!  So, during the Covid time, you are shortening their life by a few months with Covid.  Not right, but you have to think about it.

I have seen statements calling people who want to reopen the world, "selfish".  I call BS.  It is the people who don't want to reopen who are selfish.  The impact of lockdowns on the overall health and welfare of the world is terrible and worse than Covid.  If you don't see it you are not looking.  Many of the negative impacts are right out in the open, such as the unemployment, suicides, etc., but many underlying negatives will be felt far into the future.  For example, small business owners who lose their business forever, or have to tap into their savings to survive, and then have no money to send their kids to university.   People are suffering in so many ways that are not obvious to most.

I'm 63 with hypertension and mild asthma.  I will take steps to protect myself and my family, but I will never favor a total stay at home lock-down again.  These are a disaster for the world.

 

Triple like Don. You have written a great summary of some of the conclusions I had also reached but not communicated well.

Edited May 27, 2020 by earthdome

[Heeb]

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/sweden-stayed-open-during-coronavirus-pandemic-model-future-090400880--abc-news-topstories.html

Edited May 27, 2020 by Heeb

[OnMyWay]

2 hours ago, Heeb said:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/sweden-stayed-open-during-coronavirus-pandemic-model-future-090400880--abc-news-topstories.html

The critical point of view in the above article fails to mention one major point:  The Sweden deaths are really old people and many would have been dying soon even without Covid.  Yes, I'm cold blooded.  And due to age, it is likely many have comorbidities.

That is an important point because kids kept going to school.  Statistically, no kids have died in Sweden.  Yet the guy in charge of the Philippines is talking about keeping schools closed until there is a vaccine, "to save them".

Latest death by age in Sweden.  88% over 70.  9 under 30.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

Age Group	Deaths	% of Ttl	Cum %
90+	1073	25.4%	25.43%
80-89	1731	41.0%	66.45%
70-79	929	22.0%	88.46%
60-69	295	7.0%	95.45%
50-59	131	3.1%	98.55%
40-49	40	0.9%	99.50%
30-39	12	0.3%	99.79%
20-29	8	0.2%	99.98%
10-19	0	0.0%	99.98%
<10	1	0.0%	100.00%
Total	4220	100.0%

 

[GeoffH]

6 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

The critical point of view in the above article fails to mention one major point:  The Sweden deaths are really old people and many would have been dying soon even without Covid. 

 

A month is low but certainly a year or two and it's reasonable to say 'they died from Covid-19.'  And taking away the last year or two of life from someone is still 'killing them' and that's not 'acceptable collateral damage' from where I stand. 

We have a general responsibility, as a civilized society to look after the young and the old and the weak or else we simply become animals fighting for the biggest chunk of food with the strong winning and the weak left to die.  That's not civilization, that's anarchy.

Edited May 27, 2020 by GeoffH

[Heeb]

5 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

The critical point of view in the above article fails to mention one major point:  The Sweden deaths are really old people and many would have been dying soon even without Covid.  Yes, I'm cold blooded.  And due to age, it is likely many have comorbidities.

That is an important point because kids kept going to school.  Statistically, no kids have died in Sweden.  Yet the guy in charge of the Philippines is talking about keeping schools closed until there is a vaccine, "to save them".

Latest death by age in Sweden.  88% over 70.  9 under 30.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

Age Group	Deaths	% of Ttl	Cum %
90+	1073	25.4%	25.43%
80-89	1731	41.0%	66.45%
70-79	929	22.0%	88.46%
60-69	295	7.0%	95.45%
50-59	131	3.1%	98.55%
40-49	40	0.9%	99.50%
30-39	12	0.3%	99.79%
20-29	8	0.2%	99.98%
10-19	0	0.0%	99.98%
<10	1	0.0%	100.00%
Total	4220	100.0%

 

I thought I had posted a pro-Swedish approach article, did I read it wrong

[Mike J]

5 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

The critical point of view in the above article fails to mention one major point:  The Sweden deaths are really old people and many would have been dying soon even without Covid.  Yes, I'm cold blooded.  And due to age, it is likely many have comorbidities.

That is an important point because kids kept going to school.  Statistically, no kids have died in Sweden.  Yet the guy in charge of the Philippines is talking about keeping schools closed until there is a vaccine, "to save them".

Latest death by age in Sweden.  88% over 70.  9 under 30.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107913/number-of-coronavirus-deaths-in-sweden-by-age-groups/

Age Group	Deaths	% of Ttl	Cum %
90+	1073	25.4%	25.43%
80-89	1731	41.0%	66.45%
70-79	929	22.0%	88.46%
60-69	295	7.0%	95.45%
50-59	131	3.1%	98.55%
40-49	40	0.9%	99.50%
30-39	12	0.3%	99.79%
20-29	8	0.2%	99.98%
10-19	0	0.0%	99.98%
<10	1	0.0%	100.00%
Total	4220	100.0%

 

If we euthanized everyone over age 80 we could end all this corona nonsense in no time.   Then the rest of us could get on to a normal life and live happily ever after.  Well maybe not "ever after" since some of us might be over 80 when the next pandemic hits.  

[OnMyWay]

58 minutes ago, Heeb said:

I thought I had posted a pro-Swedish approach article, did I read it wrong

No, it was mostly pro-Swedish, but they mentioned "the critics" and I was referring to that.

[Old55]

It's all good until it fits your demographic?

 

[OnMyWay]

1 hour ago, GeoffH said:

 

A month is low but certainly a year or two and it's reasonable to say 'they died from Covid-19.'  And taking away the last year or two of life from someone is still 'killing them' and that's not 'acceptable collateral damage' from where I stand. 

We have a general responsibility, as a civilized society to look after the young and the old and the weak or else we simply become animals fighting for the biggest chunk of food with the strong winning and the weak left to die.  That's not civilization, that's anarchy.

 

44 minutes ago, Mike J said:

If we euthanized everyone over age 80 we could end all this corona nonsense in no time.   Then the rest of us could get on to a normal life and live happily ever after.  Well maybe not "ever after" since some of us might be over 80 when the next pandemic hits.  

You guys are not taking to account all the posts here and especially the video about the Florida approach.  In these recent posts, I didn't list out all the pros and cons of all the two main approaches:  Lockdown or no lockdown.  There are pros and cons in both approaches, and in my view, properly executed no lockdown  wins hands down over lockdown.  I think I did see a list somewhere and if I can find it, I will post it.

When I was mentioned the ages in the last few posts, it was just to bring awareness to those facts, not to say "let's sacrifice the old folks".  In previous posts, it was noted that properly executing either a lockdown or a "no lockdown" is extremely important to the elderly.

And as I have mentioned in other posts and was mentioned in the video, the first step is to "protect the elderly and the most vulnerable".  Devote your resources to that!  Exactly the opposite of what you are insinuating.  I'm not sure how Sweden handled the elderly and perhaps they could have done better there.

In Florida, where they have many retirees and different types of facilities for the elderly, they took extreme steps to protect these facilities right away, and it has worked!  Compare that to New York, who basically did kill their elderly with their decision making.  Again, I repeat, 50% of all Covid deaths in the U.S. are in nursing homes! 

Yet, in Florida, all you see in most media is, "they are opening the beaches, we are all going to die!".

[RBM]

20 hours ago, OnMyWay said:

The U.S. deaths are highly attributable to unhealthy people and unhealthy lifestyles.  And poor people are highly represented 

 

Well from what I see on TV the appalling obesity in the States  is certainly not applicable to the poor people.