POOR? just what is Poor especially here in the PI

[Jack Peterson]

WTF  I asked a very Simple Question "Do we sometimes feel that those that purport to be Poor are Not" ? 

I am not Interested in Armchair Politicians Spouting Statistics and Economics I am talking about the Man in the Street here, and as Usual, it turns nasty and get blown out of all proportion. I wonder sometimes why I bother,

 Another Topic Pissed on, by those that think they know it All. well you all carry on cos I am done  

Edited September 6, 2017 by Jack Peterson

[sonjack2847]

39 minutes ago, Jack Peterson said:

WTF  I asked a very Simple Question "Do we sometimes feel that those that purport to be Poor are Not" ? 

I am not Interested in Armchair Politicians Spouting Statistics and Economics I am talking about the Man in the Street here, and as Usual, it turns nasty and get blown out of all proportion. I wonder sometimes why I bother,

 Another Topic Pissed on, by those that think they know it All. well you all carry on cos I am done  

Some people cannot have a civilsed light hearted conversation

[Benington]

On 9/4/2017 at 11:28 AM, Jack Peterson said:

Do we as a Forum, need to look at the Wider Picture to get a sense of just what is what here.

"Poor? Just what is poor, especially here in the Philippines?"

That was the topic question set by the OP. And he then said he wanted us to look at the Wider Picture to get a sense of just what is going on here. And he has just doubled down on that.

When I first saw this topic posted I immediately had a suspicion that here was a topic where someone was looking for his views to be confirmed by posters and not interested in posts from people with a different view. And, by and large, that's what I have seen from the OP and some others.

The OPs real intent is made very clear in his latest, colourful, as ever, post. His view seems to be that poverty here in the Philippines is dramatically overstated. Not getting the unanimous support he expected for that view he now says he's done and out! But,OP, most supported you!

There were some interesting posts describing how people with low incomes here can play the system to do better....they do that in every country.

But to answer the OPs question I would argue that, sorry!...you do need to look at the statistics. I know that's getting a lot of push back these days from certain politicians with their disdain for scientific evidence,facts etc. but how else are you going to get that Wider Picture on anything?

For sure you don't get it from the observations and anecdotes of a few Expats..or from what some mate of yours said.

You can argue, as one poster did, that statistics here are very unreliable.This is a developing country, so we can expect some to be questionable. But it's not in the same league as countries like Nigeria, where their population count is the subject of expert mockery. Philippine poverty survey results are bad and cannot be explained away by doubts on reliability.

The last poster wanted a civilised and lighthearted discussion. Civilised discussion has certainly sometimes been lacking eg "fuzzy eared academics", "spouting". In fact the word "spouting" seems to have caught on here to put down someone who they can't, or don't want to understand.

Some lighthearted posts are a good thing...and some posters in this forum make a habit of them. Fine!

But the subject is Poverty. Many people here are suffering extreme poverty, and this needs to be pointed out. We can all then decide whether we want to care about it.

And something that did not come out in this discussion is how easy it is here for families here to loose their self sufficiency just by eg not having the money for hospital bills. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Benington]

On 9/5/2017 at 8:06 PM, MikeB said:

While the population of the Philippines has steadily increased (as almost everywhere) the year to year rate of population growth has steadily decreased. The problem isn't overpopulation per se, it's that the poorest segment - which can least afford them, are having so many children. Attempts at education and family planning are twisted and thwarted by the ruling religion. My best friend, Filipino, gave me good advice the first time I visited in 2002. "Have fun, enjoy the good and forget about the bad. You can't change it, it's always been like that and always will be".

Apologies for late reply.

Certainly with you about the poor here having too many children. But on the overall population increase here I'm not so relaxed as you. The demographers say the Philippines population is growing at 1.6% pa, the world growth rate is about 1.1.

They say the current population here is about 104m, maybe well over that if you doubt the reliability of the last census they held here.

I looked for those countries with population growth rates over 1.5% pa and with populations of around 100m and produced a short list:

Pakistan,Nigeria,Ethiopia,Egypt, DR Congo

Somewhat concerning to me that the Philippine is in such company.

But elsewhere in ASEAN Vietnam and Indonesia are two other member countries with large populations. Vietnam has a smaller population but a much higher growth rate, Indonesia a much higher population but a lower growth rate than the Philippines. So along with the Philippines they are both going to be adding large numbers of people a year.

So, maybe this is not so much of a problem for the Philippines? What do people here think?

 

[Jack Peterson]

3 hours ago, Benington said:

The OPs real intent is made very clear in his latest, colourful, as ever, post. His view seems to be that poverty here in the Philippines is dramatically overstated.

No mate that is your view of things, I asked a simple Question about the man in the Street stating he was Poor when in fact he is not I said Nothing about Poverty and I believe that my Topic clearly States, there is a Difference i am sure but people in the Area I live in do not die of Hunger.  You really do need to get out more  and unlike some of these article writers and Statisticians and get down to the Provinces and see Just what I mean, My Friend, Your remarks are now starting to show a disregard for our Fellow members so please don't be surprised if your Words come back and Bite you Good Morning All 

 I tend to think you are on the wrong Forum and Wonder if one of the Mensas' Forum would suit you better as it obviously you just can't see the Man in the Streets views and join in with them on anything and it shows in your Replies, that you may feel one cut above the rest of us. OK My Friend you started the insulting bits in the Post so you carry on

Edited September 7, 2017 by Jack Peterson
a little punctuation if you don't mind

[sonjack2847]

There are lies ,damned lies and statistics.I was in the corner shop the other and one of the girls was leaving work I said no Motorbike today she said no repossessed it is the third time.Her husband works for city hall and he must be on at least 8k a month and her I would think would be on 4k.A lot of the poverty here is caused by mismanagement of their own earnings.

[davewe]

I've stayed out of this topic mostly because the definition of poverty, let alone the cause, and even harder still the solution, are beyond our comprehension. I believe that our idea of poverty, like most other things is cultural. There's a great scene in the The Godfather 2 in which young Vito Corleone brings home a pear as a gift and his wife gushes with appreciation. Can you imagine the reaction today, "You bought one. Where the hell are the rest. Go back to Robinson's right now!"

Let me tell a story in my life from another 3rd world country: Trinidad and Tobago. My ex wife's family was from that country and she wanted to go there for our honeymoon in 1993. We spent a glorious week on Tobago. Completely provincial and poor even beyond the Philippines provincial poverty. I swear that other than rental cars there was not a car under 20 years old on the island.

We then spent a week in Trinidad at her cousin's home. The capital is overcrowded and bustling, like Manila. There is money to make but also great poverty. I had no idea how her cousins' home would be and assumed the worst. Guess what? They were flat out, stinking rich: kids sent to the UK for schooling, traveling all over the world, nice cars, owned race horses, etc. The first day with nothing to do, as my ex caught up with her cousin I thumbed through their CD collection. Saw the soundtrack for Phantom. We had just seen it on Broadway the week before: a wedding present from a friend of the ex. I held up the CD and bragged, "We just saw this on Broadway last week." The cousin responded: "Yes, we liked the Broadway production, but of course nothing can compare to the London production. But truthfully the Toronto production was the best we've seen!" I sat there with my mouth open, speechless - the Ugly American put in his place.

What's my point? I'm not sure. Mostly that we can't judge everything based on our Western experience. Of course there is great poverty in the Philippines, but there's also great wealth. And in between there is a huge grey area of people who live OK, despite not making what we would consider a good income.

Edited September 7, 2017 by davewe

[Benington]

3 hours ago, Jack Peterson said:

No mate that is your view of things, I asked a simple Question about the man in the Street stating he was Poor when in fact he is not I said Nothing about Poverty and I believe that my Topic clearly States, there is a Difference i am sure but people in the Area I live in do not die of Hunger.  You really do need to get out more  and unlike some of these article writers and Statisticians and get down to the Provinces and see Just what I mean, My Friend, Your remarks are now starting to show a disregard for our Fellow members so please don't be surprised if your Words come back and Bite you Good Morning All 

 I tend to think you are on the wrong Forum and Wonder if one of the Mensas' Forum would suit you better as it obviously you just can't see the Man in the Streets views and join in with them on anything and it shows in your Replies, that you may feel one cut above the rest of us. OK My Friend you started the insulting bits in the Post so you carry on

Welcome back to the topic, OP.

First of all, I'm not your mate.

You claim I have got your topic all wrong, when you said in your OP. "Maybe I have got it wrong ..I thought this was a Poor Country (or so I was led to believe)".

It's so obvious you are really questioning whether this country has as many poor people as you thought.

The 20m or so in extreme poverty, ie those on $2 a day or less got discussed maybe too much in the thread and there is a difference between them and the many more bringing in the minimum wage, or a bit higher, per day. Of course these people are getting by however they can. The Philippines has many ways to do that, maybe more than in most "First World" countries. But the fact is these people have no savings, the subject of a recent thread here, often have large families and so when events like illness come along they are struggling. Spend some time in a PCSO office in the Provinces to see that.  

You asked another question:  "Can it be that Dumaguete and Area are not so poor after all?"

Well it isn't that poor...haven't been there but just know from my knowledge that it is a University City, attracts many tourists, including foreign and, of course, many Expat retirees. And can back that up with average income statistics...but don't worry, I note your sensitivity so won't quote them. Anyway, you are reporting places there are packed..and it's not Fiesta time.

I really need to get out more? Talking of insults....!. Do you know how much I do get out? I've been coming to/from and living here for 30 years...been to many Provinces all over. I know Bicol very well, and it's definitely poorer than your neck of the woods....only Naga City comes even close to Dumaguete. Again, this can be backed up with statistics.

I'm showing disregard for other members, am I? You mean I'm not agreeing with some of them. Forums are for debate, and in debates not everyone will always agree. I have no problem with "Man in the street" type observations, opinions etc. But when someone suggests that the Philippines is not such a "Poor Country"..."as I was led to believe" I have to assume that he did once believe it was quite poor and now may change his mind, following some observations in Duma. And I have to disagree with that.

There's been a good variety of topics aired on this forum over the last two years. But I do notice that eg somebody might post a question about internet speeds, he may be just an ordinary Expat who wants to run his email, watch a few videos and play a few games. After a while the debate gets very technical, IT experts pile in and lose some people with the technicalities. I never see them being criticised for that, and they shouldn't be.

So why is it that when someone tries to contribute from his professional knowledge some  economics 101 concepts or quote simple statistics easily available online some people throw the word "academic" at him and suggest he should go to the MENSA forum? One can only speculate why they think being "academic" is an insult. And, by the way,I wouldn't qualify for the MENSA forum!

If I talk with someone, like the OP did , about them going to the BIR to pay back taxes, (so what...it's something we all know is rife here, just see all the notices encouraging people to pay up), I may post it one day if that small thing is at all relevant.

In the meantime I will contribute on certain topics from my own knowledge.

 

[Jack Peterson]

24 minutes ago, Benington said:

t's so obvious you are really questioning whether this country has as many poor people as you thought.

 Ah! Bye george he has got, it. It was as simple as that

[Jollygoodfellow]

Guys cant we all just have opinions without getting into a crap fight. 

Benington you're having a week off to decide if this forum is for you.